What’s hiring in the world of Cloud like? What are companies looking for in possible employees? What kind of career trajectory should applicants display?
Today, we’re talking to Don O’Neill, who has had an interesting career path and the archetype of who most companies want to hire. He’s been an independent contributor, platform leader, and Cloud consultant. Currently, Don is platform engineer manager at Articulate, an eLearning software solution for course authoring and eLearning development. He works with platform engineers to automate Blue Ocean pipelines with Docker, Terraform, and various Amazon Web Services (AWS) technologies, such as Elastic Beanstalk.
Some of the highlights of the show include:
Don reached out to his network to ask people that he had a professional relationship with about who was hiring and what challenges they faced
Don’s “Therapy”: Go to meet-ups to talk about DevOps topics; serves as a “I’ve-got-to-get-my-hiney-out-of-the-house-and-get-some-social-time”
Don’s journey from being a “wee lad in the industry” to a senior member/leader and giving back as a way to recognize those who helped him along the way
Hiring Horror Stories: People going through borderline ridiculous levels of hiring games and terrible interview paradigms
Companies sometimes look for something too specific - exact match instead of fuzzy match; they never have time to train, but time to look for a perfect unicorn
Articulate’s Hiring Process: Day 1 - Slack interview; Day 2 - Technical pieces; and Day 3 - Pairing with others
Articulate looks for people enthusiastic about technology, able to learn, and with emotional intelligence; company values independence, autonomy, and respect
Companies that spend several hours to make a hiring decision tend to have less success with those they hire
Cloud Certificates/Certifications: Can be valuable for applicants with no real-world experience; they don’t indicate how they’re going to work or learn
Applicants need to demonstrate a base level of knowledge; if they don’t have a skill set, they should start a project to learn about something - learning is fun
If you’re established in your career, reach out to someone just starting out to guide them
Full Episode Transcript:
Corey: This week's episode of Screaming In The Cloud is generously sponsored by DigitalOcean. I would argue that every cloud platform out their biases for different things. Some bias for having every feature you could possibly want, offer this amount at various degrees of maturity. Others bias for, "Hey, I heard there's some money to be made in the cloud space, can you give us some of it?" DigitalOcean biases for neither.
To me, they've optimized for simplicity. I told some friends of mine who are added DigitalOcean supporters about why they're using it for various things and they all said more or less the same thing. Other offerings have a bunch of shenanigans, root access, IP addresses, DigitalOcean makes all simple. In 60 seconds, you have root access to a Linux box with an IP. That's a direct quote albeit with profanity about other providers taken out.
DigitalOcean also offers fixed price offers. You always know what you're going to wind up paying this month so you don't wind up having a minor heart issue when the bill comes in. Their services are also understandable without spending three months going to cloud school. You don't have to worry about going very deep to understand what you're doing. It clicks a button or makes an API call and you receive a cloud resource.
They also include very understandable monitoring alert and lastly, they're not exactly what I would call small time. Over 150,000 businesses are using them today. So go ahead and give them a try. Visit do.co/screaming and they’ll give you a free $100 credit to try it out. That’s do.co/screaming. Thanks again to DigitalOcean for their support with Screaming In The Cloud.
Corey: Let’s get started and see what explodes. Hello and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I’m Corey Quinn. I’m joined this week by Don O’Neill of Articulate. What are we pronouncing it as this week?
Don: I don’t exactly know.
Corey: Awesome. That’s one of the most beautiful phrases that we read rather than say, which is awesome. Don is a little bit of an interesting character, which is normally what you say when you’re trying not to insult someone to their face but, in his case, it’s reasonably true. You’ve sort of had an interesting career arc here. You’ve been an independent contributor for a long time. You spent eight years as a platform leader at Microsoft of all places. From there, you’ve transitioned into another lead role currently at Articulate and you’re in the process of assuming a management role. With all of that, looking at the trajectory for your career, I thought it would be a little bit interesting to talk about hiring in the world of cloud.
Let’s start at the very beginning, I suppose. I’ve worked with you on projects before.In fact, I'm allowed to mention that you’re currently a client, which is awesome. More than that, I’ve known you for longer than I’ve been working as a cloud consultant, and, for a while now, you’ve been something of a named resource in that if I run into a weird problem and want to get feedback, “I’ll ask Don,” is sort of one of those instinctive reactions I have.
You’re a named resource for lack for a better term, and that is something that is not exactly common but it’s also not impossible to find either. You’re sort of the archetype of what a lot of companies are looking to hire as long as they have a reasonable ask for the hiring process. If you have your own leadership principles, series that you grade everyone on, or it’s critical to you that your hire is to be able to tell you accurately how much a 747 way is, great, I can’t help you down that path but I’m curious about, effectively, how you came to be. What is your career trajectory from your perspective?
Don: It started out many years ago now at a company called Autoscan, Incorporated, and what they did was they were a hired gun AutoCAD-drafting resource. They quickly realized that I had systems administration skills at the same time and they quickly asked me, “Hey, can you do this hired gun systems administration work for us?” and I was like, “Okay, sure.”
Corey: The best jobs always start with, "Here, catch."
Don: Yeah,so they converted me from hourly to salary at a salary that I won’t speak of because it was amazingly small, but it was a great opportunity for me to grow that skillset in terms of customer service,getting to know what they needed and delivering in a pretty efficient manner. From Autoscan, Incorporated, I got recruited by Adam Jacob to come work at Marchex which is an internet advertising firm among a bunch of other things.
I had known him in a social circle and he said, “Hey, I think you would be interested in this job. I think you could take advantage of your Linux skills, you obviously have Windows skills, so why don't you come work with us?We’ll do production operations together.It will be a lot of fun,” so I said, “Yes,” and I’m really glad I did. I joined a team of about six platform–or operations, or service, or whatever you want to call it–engineers.
Corey: I think they’re calling them DevOps this week.
Don: Yes, a lot of folk call them DevOps or SREs or some combination of the both.
Corey: Three-quarters of their time is spent arguing about nomenclature which is neither here nor that.
Don: Yes. So true, so true. My primary responsibility there at Marchex was making sure that the Windows stuff stayed up, build up new things, a little bit of Linux so I learned a lot of Debian and Ubuntu-related stuff at that point there, and from there, I hopped to a very short gig at a company called New Motion.It was less than six months and I got recruited to Microsoft from there, joining Microsoft in 2008 as a service engineer working on the safety platform team, helping keep people safe on the internet from malware and phishing attempts, super large scale stuff, really interesting stuff to work on. I spent about eight years there and came to realize that I wasn’t going where I wanted to go in that I wanted to do more DevOps stuff. I wanted to program more and be more architectural and infrastructural, code and all that sort of stuff so I said, “Well, what does that look like?”
I started looking around in about June, and this would have been 2016, and I didn’t until October at a company called Apex Learning in the educational space and quickly became a pretty valued resource and going into a senior DevOps engineer and effectively doing lead DevOps engineer work without actually having the title and all that sort of stuff. It goes and, from there, I started looking around for what the next thing looked like and that’s when I found Articulate.
My personal network is what helped me get that job and I was actually on a slack called HangOps, and my now boss reached out to me when I mentioned, “Hey, I’m looking for a new gig," and he was like, “Do you want to talk about coming to work for us?“ I said, “Sure, let’s talk." I talked with him and just had nothing but great vibes and then I talked to the tech lead gentleman by the name of Bryan and when I was talking with him, it was on video chat, so 100% remote company so there is no in-person this, that, or anything as far as interviews go.
When I talked to Bryan, it felt like I was talking with an old friend and we just clicked and it wasn’t much longer after that, I had been interviewing at a couple of their places.It wasn’t much longer after that. I said, “Articulate is the place for me. Remote is for me.Autonomy is for me." We had talked about what it meant to be a member of the team and we had talked about management, growing in the management from the get-go, and that really tripped my trigger so I said, “Yeah, that’s where I want to go.” That was May 1st so I joined May 1st, and, as of next week or by the time you listen to this as of this week, I will be promoted to engineering manager.
Corey: If we publish early, that’s going to surprise some people,but there are some few things you just said that are extremely resonant with how I tend to view the world. First, the fact that you said when you’re looking for a new job, it came through your back-channel networks or friend networks. If I’m hearing you correctly, you didn’t spend time on Dice or Monster or Indeed or Tinder for jobs or whatever it is people use today to find work. You reached out through a back-channel network and started asking people that you had some professional relationship with who was hiring and what challenges they were looking at, correct?
Don: Yes, that would be an absolutely correct assessment. I very heavily leverage my personal network.
Corey: It’s one of the only ways I’ve ever found for me to find jobs that made sense. I don’t have a traditional background. My resume has never been something that people look at and say, “Wow,how do we get that person in?" I’ve always been a little bit out there and I find that those conversations are incredibly valuable. The counterpoint is that for people who are early on in their career who are starting down the path of figuring out what the job is going to look like, what their career is going to look like,they don’t have those networks yet. It’s difficult when you’re new to the industry to be able to figure out how to start building that.
Don: Absolutely. One of the things that I enjoy as a thing, I call it “therapy” and I’ll explain. I’m a co-leader of the Seattle CoffeeOps, and CoffeeOps is meet-up, a welcoming meet-up that helps people who might be new to the industry or people who are very familiar in the industry to come together and talk about DevOps topics. Sometimes, the topics are straight up technology. “Oh, let’s talk about Kubernetes.Let’s talk about Docker.Let’s talk about whatever the hot thing is at the moment,” and, sometimes, it’s about the people part of the job that sometimes gets lost, is that there’s technology and there’s people in the DevOps world and it’s really a mix of the both.
I’ve been enjoying being a leader in a lot of ways because of the welcoming nature of the community and because I've developed a lot of really great professional networking contacts and friends, really. It happens every other week at Chef Headquarters in Seattle about 8 AM and, surprisingly, we get 50 to 60 people show up at 8 AM which is a lot for a meet-up, especially an early morning meet-up. The nice thing is that actually serves a second function for me. It actually serves as a I-got-to-get-my-hiney-out-of-the-house-and-get-some-social-time, and it’s kind of dual function. If I were to make a recommendation to somebody who’s just starting out, go to some meet-ups, maybe come to a Seattle CoffeeOps.Obviously, you've got to be in Seattle, but CoffeeOps is all over the States.
Corey: We’ll throw our link to that in the show notes as well along with the HangOps slack you mentioned earlier. It’s important, I have always found, to be able to tell people where to go in the context of starting to bootstrap professional network, especially in this space. Something that sort of surprises me when I talk to people who are not in the tech industry, who are in other disciplines, they don’t tend to have the slack communities. In some cases, they don’t tend to have conferences where they talk about the problems that they have where they wind up effectively reinventing the same problems at every company because there is no strong sense of community. For all of its faults, I do think that something in which technology excels as an industry.
Don: Yeah, absolutely. It’s so great. The thing I think about a lot of times is I was once just a wee lad in the industry and, now, I’ve become a senior member or a leadership member. Yes, and along the way, I got a lot of help from a lot of people. For me, I really just am inclined to give back because I would never have gotten where I got to if I hadn’t had help from other people who are further or larger, as you say, in the industry. It just feels like a thing to do, as far as I’m concerned.
Corey: I think you’re right. It’s one of those areas where there’s just not a lot of, even today, formalized education to some extent where this is a field where we get better by doing things and finding people who have already done them, while easy, is part of the reason that we wind up seeing the type of shortage of talent in this space that we might otherwise not have where every person you’re hiring looks–and when you’re making that hiring decision, when everyone looks like someone has been doing this for 15 years, there’s only so many of those people that go around.While it’s nice to be able to say, “Oh, the last time I saw this problem, it was X and we fixed it by Y," that isn’t as scalable throughout the industry as we might otherwise wish it were.
But we still wind up seeing people going through borderline ridiculous levels of hiring games trying to–I don’t know if it’s based on ego, I don’t if it’s based upon trying to build a story where they’ve magically cracked the secret sauce and turned themselves into more of a cult, but there are so many terrible interview paradigms that we’ve seen out there. I’m curious:When you were in your last job hunt, did you manage to encounter any hiring horror stories, things that just made no sense when people reached out saying, “Hey, we’re looking to hire," and then you’re stuck trying to tell them politely that their job posting is crap or they’re hiring something that doesn’t exist on this planet and they’re about to be in for a world of pain as soon as they realize that?
Don: I’ve definitely encountered some very interesting job descriptions over my recent hunts and some just really interesting hiring experiences in person and otherwise. I interviewed at a place and I'll choose to keep them out of the spotlight.Yeah, it was a company that I wanted to work for because a friend was working there and I very much want to work with this friend. I get all the information from my friend about kind of where I got to go and if there’s a billionaire I've got to go to.
What I didn’t know was that there was actually two floors to this building so I had gone to the wrong floor. I knocked on the door because there wasn’t really a receptionist at all. That’s fine.It’s kind of little like that startup inside of the larger company and its little bootstrap and there’s not a lot of structure, and,"Okay, that’s cool,"but they weren’t really ready for me to come and interview and so they’re like, “Oh, hey, uh... okay, I guess we’re interviewing you.” It ended up being a great interview.They did give me an offer. I ended up choosing to go with Articulate instead,but it was a really, really interesting experience.
Another one that I had was just incredibly slow about actually getting to interview me. I was really eager to make the move. I had a limited timeframe in which I needed to make the move because I’m a parent, I’m a husband, I have bills to pay, and savings only go so far. It would have been maybe two to three months before they would’ve actually gotten around to interview me.
Corey: Yeah, especially in tech where it's one of those stories where we often tell people, “Be careful, you might get fired and in the market that we’re in right now, you could be unemployed for dozens of minutes.” No one is going to sit around and hope for a quarter that a job offer comes through. People generally want to, to some extent, be midway through a ten-year at their next job by then."Okay, that’s great so come back to me when you’re serious."
Companies keeping people in holding patterns is always a bit of an interesting one. Here’s one story I will actually give. I interviewed for a SRE-type roll at Spotify in Stockholm once and they told me that they would get back to me and I just crossed the seven-year anniversary of that job interview and I’ve got a say, Don, I’m starting to think maybe I didn’t get the job. They could just be doing some really extensive back up jobs.
Don: I don’t think you did. Yeah, maybe so.You never know. Maybe the hiring requirements are a little bit more strict there.
Corey: No, I don’t say this to throw them under the bus.It’s easy to drop the fall on things like this but that’s the narrative that people remember. People remember these things and, at the very least, they thank you for your candidacy."We’re going in a different direction," and then you throw in the wording of, “Yeah, we’ll keep your information on file in case we wind up revisiting this down the road. Keep in touch." That’s great but it doesn’t wind up leading to an outcome where people are making jokes at your expense most of a decade later. It’s one of those areas where there are ways to handle this appropriately on both sides of that table.
Don: Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. I interviewed for a company that I was pretty eager and wanting to work for. I fly drones so it was a drone-making company.
Corey: I refuse to accept based upon the nap that CrowdStrike does not make drones. They tell me they don’t. I’m convinced they’re hiding but, please, continue.
Don: Yes, you would think that they would do that. Anyway, I go to an interview. It was really exciting for me because it was 100% remote and I had a hobby that I thought will lend itself well to the SRE-type job. In the end, they chose not to go with me and that’s fine. I think they made the right call but the thing that I would reflect on is that I think they were looking for a little bit too specific of a thing. They were looking for an exact match instead of a fuzzy match, and I think that, in my mind, is a little bit of a problem in the industry. Sometimes, places are really looking for a precise match instead of being willing to understand, "Well, this person isn’t a perfect match but they have enough of what we need that we can teach them the rest and grow them into what we want."
Corey: To try and find people that you can grow in the world is fascinating but, often, you’ll hear stories where, “Oh, it would take six months to train someone up on this role. We need to hire someone who can hit the ground running," and then the direct is open for nine months. People tend to say one thing and do the other. You never have time to train but always time to look for the perfect unicorn.
Don: Yeah, and they exist but at the same time, man, if you have a little bit more open-mindedness about how you hire and what you hire, I think you’re going to get some really great employees that are very appreciative of the fact that you took a chance on them.
Corey: It’s important to remember, too, that excellence is situational.A completely amazing employee with one company gets fired at another. It winds up not just being about the individual but it has much more to do with the fit between the environment that they’re in, the problems they’re working on, the time. There’s a lot of factors that play into this. If someone was amazing at a previous job, that doesn’t guarantee they'll succeed in their current job or vice versa. Now that you’re donning that mantle of management, how do you intend to approach hiring?
Don: So true. We actually have a pretty unique approach to hiring at Articulate. We have what we call a slack interview. Because we are globally diverse and geographic and time-zone diverse, we have a lot of asynchronous nature in what happens with our job day to day. We have a three-day process that we go through. Day one, we invite the person to the slack and then we get to know them on a very social kind of like just really general way.
Day two, we tend to dive into the more technical stuff and then, day three, what we like to do is we actually to spend an hour pairing up with people and getting a better sense of how they interact, what their curiosity about a thing might be and do they fit? We don’t always pair but we tend to try to do that. This ends up being a very interesting format and there are pros and cons because of course, if you’re an introvert, maybe talking with a bunch of platform engineers all at once might be really intimidating. We’re trying to look at that and we’re constantly adjusting the way that we do the interviewing.
At the same time, we tend to find–and it really sussesout a good match versus a bad match pretty quickly. We’ve done a number of interviews and we’ve recently hired about five new people. We’re still actually looking for a platform engineer in the Apac time zone and it’s pretty exciting stuff. Interestingly enough, this particular type of interview or style of interview is completely different than the interview I went through to join the team, and we actually joke a lot that if anyone of us who have already been hired were to go through the same process, we may not get hired.
Not to say that it’s a real tough thing, what we tend to do is we tend to look for not the exact match but an enthusiasm about a particular technology or something that we’re doing that interests them in the ability to learn as well as emotional intelligence. We value independence and autonomy and respect very much at Articulate. It’s a very important thing to us. It’s been a really interesting thing to be a member of from the other side. I’m doing a fair amount of interviewing with the rest of the team.
Corey: Not to put you too much on the spot for this one here, but how much time do you find that it takes from a candidate to go through your interview process from initial approach to offer? I’m sorry, I’m trying to ask more clarity.
Don: We move pretty quick. When we make a decision, we make it pretty quickly.
Corey: I guess my question for you is more along the lines of is this a three-day full-day endeavor on the client’s side? Is this a couple of hours each day?How does this wind up acting is a time sink for a prospective candidate?That’s sort of what I was getting at. I wanted to throw you under the best in case of a perfectly wrong answer.
Don: Well, we don’t presume that you’re going to have three days’ worth of time.We just don’t. Yeah, it’s been interesting to me because each candidate engages us in a different way and to a different degree. Some people actually have a lot of time in their hands. They’re bored at their job. They want to get another job so they’ll just be on slack and chat all day long. Others are very realistic. They’re like, “Hey, this is the set of hours that I’m going to be available to chat, and so I’ll be on and I’ll chat during that time,"but our expectations are,"Chat when you can and as much as you can, and if you have to go, that’s fine."
We understand this is a very asynchronous thing. We have people in the Netherlands.We have people on India so they have to be involved in the conversation, too, so it might be I'll ask a question and, 12 hours later, I get an answer. The next day, you want to hop back online. Again, it’s a different style of interview than I think I’ve ever seen. I can’t say that I’ve ever seen anybody do it that way.Does it make it right? I don’t know. It seems to have been working out pretty good for us. We've got a number of really awesome employees in the last three or four months that I’m pretty excited.
Corey: Yeah, it’s always nice when you can demonstrate success. What I like about your approach specifically is that it doesn’t seem too biased for people who are unemployed or can otherwise just take the better part of a week off to go and sit through 15 different rounds of interviews. One thing that I firmly believe for a long time now has been you can wind up telling an awful lot about a company by how they buy their people. If they’re spending an enormous amount of time trying to make a decision, they go through 15 rounds of interviews for most roles.It winds up very quickly becoming a situation where there just isn’t an awful lot of probability of success.
Don: Another thing for the job seeker:They oftentimes end up feeling like getting a job is a full-time job and being exhausted after just a couple of interviews. I think this approach might work better. I don’t know. I certainly enjoy it. It means yes, there’s a lot of time that you could choose to put in but, again, we don’t assume that you’re going to do that. We are flexible about how much time a person will put in.
Corey: I think it’s one of those things that winds up being different on a case-by-case basis.
Don: Yeah, I don’t know.
Corey: It’s challenging to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution. Different companies are going to have different constraints. That’s kind of nice about it. What I mean is different companies can have the luxury of biasing for different things as they go through this process. To that end that I’m sure that, regardless of how you answer, you’re going to irritate at least half of the people listening. Do you find that when you look at a resume for a prospective candidate, do you find that certificates or certifications in the world of cloud act as a distinguishing characteristic? Is it a signal of any sort,positive or negative? How do you view them?
Don: As a person that doesn’t have a single cert, I tend to bias against them just because I think that they can be valuable if you have no actual real-world experience but I don’t think they say much about how you’re going to work and how you’re going to learn. Those to me are the much more important things, like, “Hey, can you learn the thing?” "Great,we’ll talk to you.""Do you already know the thing? Awesome!""Can you expand upon the thing? Awesome!" Yeah, you’re right, that’s probably going to–this is an angel debate:Certs or no certs? I’m in firmly in the camp of no certs. I don’t find them very valuable.
Corey: I tend to come from a position that mirrors yours but I could probably that's in that. In the interest of full disclosure–and I had a blog post go out about this recently–I have a single AWS search, a cloud practitioner, generally aimed at non-technical people who want to understand the business of cloud. This serves me absolutely no professional purpose, but it does get me into the certified lounge at re:Invent and the AWS summits.
It’s this really weird entrance questionnaire to a lounge pass, is how I tend to view that. That said, if you are new to the field and you’re looking to demonstrate that you have a passing familiarity with a particular vendor or cloud computing, I’m hesitant to wind up dinging people for having it. I think that it definitely provides at least a fundamental baseline of, "They probably know at least X, Y, and Z," and it gives you context to view them through a particular lens.
I don’t think that it necessarily replaces experience but, once you have experience, the value starts to diminish rather significantly. The other side of that, too–and I do start to hold it against people past a certain point–when you’re having a conversation with someone, looking at their resume and you realize that they hold 23 active certifications–yes,I met someone who did that once–and,"Okay, you are probably one of the best people I’ve ever met sitting down and passing tests, but I’m trying to hire people to do work. It would be awesome if you could show up and do work." “Oh, I can’t. I have another cert exam to cram for,” is not the answer we’re generally looking for in those moments.
Don: Yeah, absolutely, it’s an interesting space. I think you got something there. I think you’re really onto something, especially for people that are new to the industry.You really need to demonstrate that there are some base level of knowledge. I don’t think that certs are meaningless. I just find that for somebody who’s got some time in the industry, that they’re not as meaningful. Just a quick tale about myself: When I was looking to make the transition from a service engineer at Microsoft to more of a DevOps engineer, a lot of places we’re looking for AWS as a skillset.Now I knew Azure and most people know that,at Azure, if you know one cloud service, you probably can translate that into another cloud service.
There may be needed certs so what I ended up doing is just going and buying a subscription to a training place and saying that I’m going to go and get some of the certifications that they have and show some basic proficiency, and they do end up showing up on my LinkedIn resume and that’s useful because that allowed the person to understand, “Okay, so this person has this related thing and they know about those other things so they can probably manage to do the thing that I need them to do."
That’s actually a bit of advice that I do tend to give to people. If you don’t have a skill set, go start a project and learn about that thing. In my case, I wanted to learn Chef. Go do a project that forces you to learn that thing and maybe manage a VM with Chef or go learn how to do Docker or Terraform, or whatever. I think that works out really well because it makes it fun to learn. Learning is fun.It really is.
Corey: The challenge that I always run into is it’s easy to bias into a trivia competition. How would you go about solving for X, Y, and Z under the following constraints?It turns into a geek slap fight where you sort of figure out which one of you has the better mastery of trivia, and I enjoy those games over drinks with friends in the bar. I don’t find that they’re valuable or valid in an interview context because, first, not everyone has this stuff off the top of their head and, frankly, whether you do or don’t is not an indicator as to your capability.
Secondly, if I’m the interviewer, I’m sitting there in that room and I have a job. I already know what my career looks like at that moment and whether I turn out to be the best trivia person or not in that room really doesn’t matter to me all that much but for the person on the other side of that table, this is the next step in their career. There are very few higher-stakes conversations that most people tend to have on a semi-frequent basis. It is absolutely not a level playing field.
Don: Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. It’s one of those things where if you have the cert, great, awesome, but I don’t think it’s a hard requirement. Like I said, I don’t have certs but I have experience and I don’t think I’m going to struggle to stay hired. Well, you’re going to have to pry my job from my cold, dead hands first but, if I were in a market, I don’t think I'd have a problem.
Corey: I feel like you’re right. It’s one of those areas where finding the right company and finding the right people to collaborate with is incredibly valuable and, to that end, I want to ask our listeners to do one of a couple different things. First, if you’re established in your career, take a little bit of time to reach out to someone who’s just starting out and see if you can act as a sounding board. See if you can help guide them toward the next thing that they’re going for.
An introduction to someone who has a problem that looks like them would be a fantastic way to change someone’s life at almost no cost to yourself. Secondly, if you are just starting out in your career, reach out and start talking to people about these things. If you are at a loss for who to talk to about career next steps, feel free to reach out to me. I’m Corey@screaminginthecloud.com. Feel free to send me an email. I will either share my thoughts with you or point you in the direction of someone who’s aligned with what it is you’re trying to do next. I found that, early on in my career, I was stifled for a lack of mentors, and being able to find people who can help me advance took longer than it should have. I’d be further ahead now if it hadn’t been such a burden. That’s one of the things I try and do to make the world a slightly better place.
Don: Yeah, that’s awesome, Corey.That’s super awesome. Feel free to reach out to me to email@example.com. I would certainly would be happy to talk to you at length about maybe what your next steps are.
Corey: In fact, get us both on the phone at the same time and we’ll argue with each other to a draw, at which point you’ll learn probably very little but it’ll be stunning entertaining. Don, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today, I appreciate it.
Don: Yes, we will.
Corey: That’s how we know that I’ve completely had you bamboozled with my marketing.
Don: Thanks for taking the time to have me on your show. I am honored.
Corey: Don O’Neill from Articulate. I’m Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud.
Don: That’s standard for the course, right?